Boycotting Sponsors? Getting paid what we deserve?

[dyzeesnd]

I want to examine a serious but re-occurring issue in our community about boycotting certain sponsors, for the reason that us B-boys are not getting paid what we are worth. I do understand this mind frame, because other cultures, arts, sports, athletes, dancers, get paid lots more than b-boys do, and we all know how hard it is to be a Bboy, and to make a living from it.

Firstly, I must state that “Bboys are getting paid, exactly what they are worth.” And yes its pretty peanuts compared to everything else.
The “worth” is determined by how much somebody is willing to pay, and how low somebody is going to sell it for, as well as what is the needed quality of the product or service.

So since Bboys are selling our skills as entertainment, our worth is decided by what is the most that a company is willing to pay for the best of the best Bboys.

In our own community, how much do b-boys get paid to enter a competition? The answer is, NOTHING. So, when a big company like Redbull pays 16 bboys $1000 dollars each, just to enter, they are paying way more and pretty much setting the standards for how much our worth is.

Now we can't blame Redbull or any company for determining our low pay standard because, they are paying more than anyone else is. For example, its like trying to sell someone a rare stamp for $10,000 dollars, but other people around the world sell the stamp for $100 dollars. Who would pay more, when you can pay the same as everyone else?

However, if all bboys were known to be paid $3000 dollars each, just to battle, then these corporate companies would be more than willing to pay us what we cost. But we don't have any official standard costs! So why would a person, or company choose to pay more than the worth?

I think the real question should be, “Should Bboys deserve to be making more money?” I think that's a stupid question, of course we should! Let me first explain the reasons why our worth is so low.

#1 No Unity
We are a torn and divided community where everyone is fighting over simple things such as what is the right way, who should of won a battle, who should be judges, etc.
One of the number 1 ways to win a war, is to divide and conquer. We are already divided, so conquering our market, our industry, and our worth, really isn't that difficult.

#2 No Standards
There pretty much isn't any official standards in how much we should get paid, especially when corporate companies come in to our scene. First thing they will ask, how much do we need to pay the bboys? They soon find out that some Bboys charge $1000 dollars right off the bat, others charge $500 while some are open to negotiation. Either way, they can come in and set the standards, because there is none! Also, there is no standards of quality, all bboys in their eyes is equal. Any company can choose their favorite top 16 Bboys, and market them saying, “These guys are the best in the world!!!” even if the majority of them are not world level.

#3 Undercutting.
If one Bboy wants to charge $1000 dollars to a big company (who has more than enough money to pay), there's always going to be another Bboy out there, just as good and just as entertaining, who will do it for cheaper. Especially since many bboys are already struggling financially, $500 dollars might be rent money or baby diapers.

So these 3 reasons is why bboys are getting paid exactly what we deserve, because we are NOT unified, we have not created any standards, and we keep undercutting each other! So the question is, how do we find a solution?

Boycotting?
To boycott events that put some serious money into the B-boy industry because you want to get paid more is like, thinking that food cost too much money so you Boycott buying food. That simply wont work because these companies, are not Bboying companies that depend on the survival of bboying in order to grow their business. They are sponsors, who are funding the well being of our community.

So what do we need to do?

#1 Unity
The first step is to unite together. And it doesn't have to be at a level where all of us are buddies and friends, but where we can come to some type of collective agreement on, what is bboying? If we can't agree on what is bboying, then how do we expect sponsors and businesses to know what bboying is? How can we get mad at them if they don't represent the culture right, when even we can't agree on what is representing right?

#2 Standards (Judging, Ranking and Pay)
At this point, there is not official judging system for bboying. So what this means, is that any company or sponsor worldwide, can pretty much throw a jam (with a little bit of research) choose 3 to 5 judges, put up a decent cash prize, choose their favorite bboys or crews to battle, and call it the mother of world championship bboying. Do you know what this means? That any company can walk in, pay 5 decent judges, and pretty much OWN the best event in bboying. They can make ALL the rules, call all the shots, and do everything pretty much the way they want to do it, and the community has no power to say, “Hey, it should be done like this,” or “NO, this is not the world championships of bboying unless you have the very best bboys in it.”
An official Judging System, that cannot be duplicated easy by just picking and choosing 3-5 judges, is the start to making some type of standard that any company who want's in on the culture must agree to, thus putting the power into the hands of the bboys, saying, “if you don't judge bboying this way, then bboys will think your event is WACK”. Kind of like if a company throws a jam and get's the crowd to judge, we would think it's wack right?

Unfortunately, we don't yet have an official system so we can't do anything about it.

Now if there is a worldwide ranking system, then now the bboys would have the power to demand more money and standards from a world championship claimed event. For example, if a company organizes an event with the top 16 bboys, but only 3 of them are world level, they still say its a world championships. But if there is an official ranking system, then these companies are forced to have to pay the price that these bboys are asking for, in order to get the official best of the best.

#3 Association (protection)
So once we have unity within the community, and standards, the next thing we need is an association to govern and protect these standards. Someone needs to be in charge of the judging system, which allows organizers in the culture to use it, but makes sure that outsider companies coming in, don't exploit bboying.
For example, imagine I have a lot of money, and I decide, im going to own the biggest skateboarding tournament in the world. I decide that I don't want to pay anyone, so Ill just throw the entire event myself, and just hire 3 to 5 of my favorite Skaters to be judges. Plus ill invite the most entertaining Skaters, not necessarily all the best ones, but the ones who will entertain the crowd, as well as a few guys who deserve to be there. Ill make all the rules, and call all the shots, put up a bit of cash prize, and say that my event, is the most prestigious Skateboarding event in the whole world, marketing this to the general public.
If I did this, the skating community would be outraged, and their many associations would boycott my event, exposing that its not real, it isn't using their judging system or standards, it doesn't have the highest ranked competitive skaters in the world, and it's simply not the “most prestigious world championships of skating”.

This is exactly what is happening, and is going to happen in Bboying, unless we do something to take control into our own hands. This is the purpose of OUR System and OUR Bboys, to Unite the community and all the different perspectives, create standards to protect the culture, and build towards a future where Bboys can get paid exactly what they should really be worth.

If you think this is a topic worth discussing, please share it with those necessary.

[erwin123]

Originally Posted by dyzeesnd

I want to examine a serious but re-occurring issue in our community about boycotting certain sponsors, for the reason that us B-boys are not getting paid what we are worth. I do understand this mind frame, because other cultures, arts, sports, athletes, dancers, get paid lots more than b-boys do, and we all know how hard it is to be a Bboy, and to make a living from it.

Firstly, I must state that “Bboys are getting paid, exactly what they are worth.” And yes its pretty peanuts compared to everything else.
The “worth” is determined by how much somebody is willing to pay, and how low somebody is going to sell it for, as well as what is the needed quality of the product or service.

So since Bboys are selling our skills as entertainment, our worth is decided by what is the most that a company is willing to pay for the best of the best Bboys.

In our own community, how much do b-boys get paid to enter a competition? The answer is, NOTHING. So, when a big company like Redbull pays 16 bboys $1000 dollars each, just to enter, they are paying way more and pretty much setting the standards for how much our worth is.

Now we can't blame Redbull or any company for determining our low pay standard because, they are paying more than anyone else is. For example, its like trying to sell someone a rare stamp for $10,000 dollars, but other people around the world sell the stamp for $100 dollars. Who would pay more, when you can pay the same as everyone else?

However, if all bboys were known to be paid $3000 dollars each, just to battle, then these corporate companies would be more than willing to pay us what we cost. But we don't have any official standard costs! So why would a person, or company choose to pay more than the worth?

I think the real question should be, “Should Bboys deserve to be making more money?” I think that's a stupid question, of course we should! Let me first explain the reasons why our worth is so low.

#1 No Unity
We are a torn and divided community where everyone is fighting over simple things such as what is the right way, who should of won a battle, who should be judges, etc.
One of the number 1 ways to win a war, is to divide and conquer. We are already divided, so conquering our market, our industry, and our worth, really isn't that difficult.

#2 No Standards
There pretty much isn't any official standards in how much we should get paid, especially when corporate companies come in to our scene. First thing they will ask, how much do we need to pay the bboys? They soon find out that some Bboys charge $1000 dollars right off the bat, others charge $500 while some are open to negotiation. Either way, they can come in and set the standards, because there is none! Also, there is no standards of quality, all bboys in their eyes is equal. Any company can choose their favorite top 16 Bboys, and market them saying, “These guys are the best in the world!!!” even if the majority of them are not world level.

#3 Undercutting.
If one Bboy wants to charge $1000 dollars to a big company (who has more than enough money to pay), there's always going to be another Bboy out there, just as good and just as entertaining, who will do it for cheaper. Especially since many bboys are already struggling financially, $500 dollars might be rent money or baby diapers.

So these 3 reasons is why bboys are getting paid exactly what we deserve, because we are NOT unified, we have not created any standards, and we keep undercutting each other! So the question is, how do we find a solution?

Boycotting?
To boycott events that put some serious money into the B-boy industry because you want to get paid more is like, thinking that food cost too much money so you Boycott buying food. That simply wont work because these companies, are not Bboying companies that depend on the survival of bboying in order to grow their business. They are sponsors, who are funding the well being of our community.

So what do we need to do?

#1 Unity
The first step is to unite together. And it doesn't have to be at a level where all of us are buddies and friends, but where we can come to some type of collective agreement on, what is bboying? If we can't agree on what is bboying, then how do we expect sponsors and businesses to know what bboying is? How can we get mad at them if they don't represent the culture right, when even we can't agree on what is representing right?

#2 Standards (Judging, Ranking and Pay)
At this point, there is not official judging system for bboying. So what this means, is that any company or sponsor worldwide, can pretty much throw a jam (with a little bit of research) choose 3 to 5 judges, put up a decent cash prize, choose their favorite bboys or crews to battle, and call it the mother of world championship bboying. Do you know what this means? That any company can walk in, pay 5 decent judges, and pretty much OWN the best event in bboying. They can make ALL the rules, call all the shots, and do everything pretty much the way they want to do it, and the community has no power to say, “Hey, it should be done like this,” or “NO, this is not the world championships of bboying unless you have the very best bboys in it.”
An official Judging System, that cannot be duplicated easy by just picking and choosing 3-5 judges, is the start to making some type of standard that any company who want's in on the culture must agree to, thus putting the power into the hands of the bboys, saying, “if you don't judge bboying this way, then bboys will think your event is WACK”. Kind of like if a company throws a jam and get's the crowd to judge, we would think it's wack right?

Unfortunately, we don't yet have an official system so we can't do anything about it.

Now if there is a worldwide ranking system, then now the bboys would have the power to demand more money and standards from a world championship claimed event. For example, if a company organizes an event with the top 16 bboys, but only 3 of them are world level, they still say its a world championships. But if there is an official ranking system, then these companies are forced to have to pay the price that these bboys are asking for, in order to get the official best of the best.

#3 Association (protection)
So once we have unity within the community, and standards, the next thing we need is an association to govern and protect these standards. Someone needs to be in charge of the judging system, which allows organizers in the culture to use it, but makes sure that outsider companies coming in, don't exploit bboying.
For example, imagine I have a lot of money, and I decide, im going to own the biggest skateboarding tournament in the world. I decide that I don't want to pay anyone, so Ill just throw the entire event myself, and just hire 3 to 5 of my favorite Skaters to be judges. Plus ill invite the most entertaining Skaters, not necessarily all the best ones, but the ones who will entertain the crowd, as well as a few guys who deserve to be there. Ill make all the rules, and call all the shots, put up a bit of cash prize, and say that my event, is the most prestigious Skateboarding event in the whole world, marketing this to the general public.
If I did this, the skating community would be outraged, and their many associations would boycott my event, exposing that its not real, it isn't using their judging system or standards, it doesn't have the highest ranked competitive skaters in the world, and it's simply not the “most prestigious world championships of skating”.

This is exactly what is happening, and is going to happen in Bboying, unless we do something to take control into our own hands. This is the purpose of OUR System and OUR Bboys, to Unite the community and all the different perspectives, create standards to protect the culture, and build towards a future where Bboys can get paid exactly what they should really be worth.

If you think this is a topic worth discussing, please share it with those necessary.

Its a start but some things cant and wont happen overnight, there are still a lot of rotten apples in the scene (promoters). Who have ripped of sponsors and other promoters in the past. Thats why some cant & never will work together on projects.

Bboys need to become more responsible as well, alot of times bboys cancel on flights because of personal reasons leaving promoters in financial stress, most of this happens lastminute were its financially not possible to fix another person

[dyzeesnd]

Originally Posted by erwin123

Its a start but some things cant and wont happen overnight, there are still a lot of rotten apples in the scene (promoters). Who have ripped of sponsors and other promoters in the past. Thats why some cant & never will work together on projects.

Bboys need to become more responsible as well, alot of times bboys cancel on flights because of personal reasons leaving promoters in financial stress, most of this happens lastminute were its financially not possible to fix another person

yeah your right, i totally agree.

[atomicgoofball]

I like where you are going with this Dyzee. There are so many people out there who dream of being a professional bboy but fail to see it's not that glorious or luxurious. Sure people know your name and want you to sign autographs but you can't really make a good living on it unlike other professional sports.

BBoys are athletes, bboys work hard if not harder than most athletes out there why not be appreciate as such?

There should be some sort of union, we need to take care of each other and give opportunity to those who work hard for it, and live a great life doing what they love!

So dyzee, you are already on a good start with an international ranking system, but we also need unions, agencies, etc.

Look at UFC, where it came from and where it is now!

[KOOLSKEE 36]

Generally, I like your thoughts and how you break them down.
One thing that bothers me, is that the velue of a bboy will then be pretty much determined by the competitions he won. Since they'll be official then. But I think there's a hell lot of people that don't enter or win comps that might be the overall "better" bboys. How will they charge the same like those "official world champions" then?
It's not like this doesn't allready happen, but it will even boost it.

People will get payd by the comps they won. Not by how much they masterd their art.
It's good for the sport. I'm not sure if this will turn out good for the culture.

On another note. Is there a world champion in expressionistic painting? Why should there be one for breaking?

Up for debate.

[KOOLSKEE 36]

P.S. Yes, I do think bboy culture needs more integrity and unity is much needed.

[dyzeesnd]

Originally Posted by KOOLSKEE 36

Generally, I like your thoughts and how you break them down.
One thing that bothers me, is that the velue of a bboy will then be pretty much determined by the competitions he won. Since they'll be official then. But I think there's a hell lot of people that don't enter or win comps that might be the overall "better" bboys. How will they charge the same like those "official world champions" then?
It's not like this doesn't allready happen, but it will even boost it.

These are totally legitimate concerns. Allow me to break down how the value of a bboy would not be determined only by the competitions he won.

Firstly, we need to clarify what the term value means.

Value=The price range and prestige that people (organizers, employers, companies, sponsors, audience, bboys, etc) are willing to pay for a product or service.
Bboys do not sell products, but rather services (skills, performances, endorsements, etc)

Next we need to discuss, how do we determine who is a "better" bboy? One would think that the better bboy is determined by what he has won, but that is not always the case. So lets look back into the past to see how the better bboy, or anyone in hip hop was determined by back in the past.

- "Skills" is the universal language of Hip hop
- No matter what language a person speaks or where they are from, it is easy to recognize when someone has some serious skills, whether its breaking, rapping, writing, etc.
- These skills is how someone earned him or herself a "Rep" (reputation).
- So Hip hop, is all about earning a rep. Some people say one person is the best, another will say someone else is the best.
- The way this issue of who is really better was settled is by the "Battle", which is Hip hop's Universal way of settling differences (of opinions, styles, philosophies, etc)
-Whoever won the battle, proved his rep, or earned an even greater one.


So the point im trying to make is that the Value of a Bboy is based on his Reputation and what he/she is hired or invited to do.

Originally Posted by KOOLSKEE 36

People will get payd by the comps they won. Not by how much they masterd their art.
It's good for the sport. I'm not sure if this will turn out good for the culture.

An official Ranking System will determine a "Tournament Competition Battle B-boy's" worth when being invited to battle in "World Championships" by a sponsor or company.
And I'd like to clarify that winning tournaments doesn't necessarily mean that one is a better bboy, for a real battle isn't determined by 3 rounds, it needs to go the distance to see which style will last.

However, having a specific reputation and going into a battle that everyone wants to see can still be a lot. For example, the best footworker by reputation doesn't nessecarily have to be the best battle bboy. If he was to go against another person who is the best footworker from another region for unlimited rounds, just to see who is better, a lot of people would want to see that battle, therefore the Value would be higher.

I also would like to point out that in the competition aspect of Breaking, once there are judges, time and round limits, prize money, rules, etc, it does become like a Sport. I believe that if the integrity of the battle and essence is kept, and the value of bboying and bboys as athletes multiplies, the artistic side of bboying will grow with it.

For example, the competition side of Skateboarding was the first to blow up.
The Value of the athletes multiplied.
This provided the means for Skateboarding companies to emerge.
Skateboarding companies relied on the general audience to support their brands.
So the Skateboarding companies began to also sponsor the "Artistic" side of skateboarding, sponsoring street skaters to just film themselves doing what they love to do, not even having to compete.
This lead to the artistic side of skateboarding to surpass the competitive side, which could not have happened without athletes and artists going hand in hand.

Originally Posted by KOOLSKEE 36

On another note. Is there a world champion in expressionistic painting? Why should there be one for breaking?

Up for debate.

The main difference between expressionistic painting and Breaking, is the expressionistic painting produces an actual product which has value, whether or not the artist is a champion or not.
Bboy's aren't creating a type of art that can be tangibly bought. What gives it value, is the skill and competition. The general audience doesn't watch bboying and think "Wow, the way this guy dances gives me so much emotion, and feeling. I love his artistic expression!". Watching a battle is like watching a fight, not an artistic performance piece... at least it certainly didn't start off that way in the beginnings.

[flofdc]

Originally Posted by atomicgoofball

I like where you are going with this Dyzee. There are so many people out there who dream of being a professional bboy but fail to see it's not that glorious or luxurious. Sure people know your name and want you to sign autographs but you can't really make a good living on it unlike other professional sports.

BBoys are athletes, bboys work hard if not harder than most athletes out there why not be appreciate as such?

There should be some sort of union, we need to take care of each other and give opportunity to those who work hard for it, and live a great life doing what they love!

So dyzee, you are already on a good start with an international ranking system, but we also need unions, agencies, etc.

Look at UFC, where it came from and where it is now!

Yes we are athletes but we are also atists... It's a lot harder to define a winner in a bboy battle than in a race or a basketball game (since it's hard to quantify art).

I definitely agree with the union idea though! For setting prices for shows, teaching etc...

On a side note, this is the case with other dances too (contemporary, ballet, salsa etc...), some gigs pay well, some gigs pay not enough...

[carpe]

I'm not going into the parts with the judging and ranking systems, for me this is not the essence of the problem while undercutting and unity really is. If all bboys stood together, it doesnt matter what type of judging system is used. Check my idea on how bboys could unity quite easily.

Just for my background: I've been dancing for 12 years now and have been making a living from it for 6 years now by doing shows and running a bboy school.

My Input to this discussion would be the following:

Someone should found an Agency. This idea has been in my mind for a long time. If someone is needing a bboy for a workshop/show/judging etc the first adress to call should be this agency. if someone gets called directly the forward them to the agency. Most bboys/crews should be listed in that agency with their prices. So the organizers/promoters deal only with the agency not with the bboys directly. This will step up the professionality of all the dancers and negotiations are easier for an agency than for the bboy itself, simply because they are the agency and present themselfs in a professional way. This way the payment standarts could be raised and dyzees point of undercutting would be eliminated. The bboys themself would have more time to focus on actually dancing and practicing than dealing and negotiating with promoters/companies. The agency would simply inform them on their tasks while handling all the business. I've been thinking about this a lot and I'd love to make it happen someday, if someone is planning on doing so count me in. It really would step up the professionality and therefor the payments.

Let me know your thoughts on this idea.

[bronx boy]

bboys are athletes really?????????????? its not a dance ok i thought it was a dance not a sport !!!!!!!!!! tired of that comment bboying is a sport or something like that.theres already a sport called gymnastics you guys should look it up they do flare flips handstand splits and now even air flares . if rocking beats is not your main fosuc then why call yourself a bboy ?????????? i dont get it !!!!! there no problem in gymnastics if you want it compete for flips and shit like that then y not enter gymnastics it makes sense no? y go compete against people who are concerned about dancing to the beat with style ???? y not compete againgst other people who just specalize in flips and tricks that makes sense to me ... i mix kung fu with my dance but i dont say iam a kung fu master .. just how people like cico mixes bboys moves withe gymnastic moves... hes not into the break beats the funk the music like that ... he said so himself he dont care about it hes into flying hes an amazing gymnist not an a amazing breakboy or beatboy he dosent rock beats if you follow me !!!!! look at all other aspects of this culture every element gets paid well expect bboys, because its being looked as a seperate entity of the culture now its a sport based on contest????? i think the WHY we arent getting paid is not because theres no unity its because the bboys of the early days didnt put there foot down from the start. dizzy you must not know your history did you know that there were some crews that werent in beat street because they had managers and was asking for real paper!!!!! and the producers went with the crews who low balled themselfs the most !!!!! its been happening since 80's g this is nothing new its about knowing your worth and the value of you art !!! the real problem is a saturated market with carbon copys who will low ball themself just to get a gig !!!!!! i see real masters deal with these problem all the time.... you need to wake up out of that contest bull you on and hit the street every once and a while...
i see you have alot of good points but non of them benefit any bboys from the street and street culture all your work is contest orientated and i find that kinda of lame.......... iam true hip hoper fuck a sponser give me a generator some tables and a mic and a rough ass concrete cypha and ill be battleing dudes all night fuck a contest you think guys llike bambatta was worried about a sponser??????? the question i have for you dizzy is which culture are you apart of the grass roots hip hop where it started or do you gell you hair up like dragon ball z and represent that new contest style hip pop?????????????????????: tnx:: wall::wa ll:

[rancepaglin]

I don't post much but here goes.

I honestly don't understand why Bboying can't be both a dance and a sport AT THE SAME TIME. A lot of peeps get angry when you call bboying a sport but look how Google defines the word "Sport":

"An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others."

Doesn't Bboying fulfill every word that is written in the definition above?

I could have my whole history wrong but I was under the impression that the foundations of our culture were built on battling (which is just a really specific and esoteric term for competing) for pride, girls etc etc.

This is relevant because if we were to look at most of the dances around the world, we see that except for those that are connected to the street, none of them seem to have this sort of culture going on. I have never seen two ballerinas, jazz dancers or swing dancers go at it.

Therefore, there seems to be some deficiency in merely classifying bboying as a dance because we have an aspect in our dance that does not seem present in other forms of dances. Furthermore, that part of our dance is so relevant that to take it away would be to change the dance entirely.

my 2 cents.

peace.

[OriginalCrew]

as i see it. bboying to be a sport, we all should battle in which sixsteps is better.
thing is by the definition we can consider it a sport. a physical bla bla..yes it is a sport. but can you consider what you do late at night in the club with a girl...a sport?
or the hours thinking and dancing and just grooving POINTLESSLY. just a sport....
sorry . i cannot.