New judging system?

[Shankavelli]

Originally Posted by yom10

The hardest thing is too find a judge that can explain with details in each rouds why you won or why you lost your battle, including a clear explaination. .

well then you never worked with me.
i have my own style of mixed up writing, that just looks like codes, i use it cause its easy for me to write it.
i take notes the hwole battle and i can give a play by play round for round of what i saw and why i came to my descision.
im not saying im the best judge, but a good judge should be able to do this easily, if he cant, he shouldnt be judgeing.
i once had a judge tell me "shit the fuck up" just cause i asked "yo how you came to tat call?"

[FrostimusPrime]

In My Opinion.

Based on being one of a few B-Boys still dancing today who's grown up on this judging system since Snc started n Nov 99' at the first Back 2 Da Underground Event.

I Have to say that this system makes more sense for "crews" to battle on a complete level of representation (having Majour Elements Categorized)

However I Don't Always Agree With How It Works In Other Formats. In Theory It Makes Sense On The Intentions Of What Snc Want To Do... Make Breaking Commercially Accessible And On The Same Format And Plain As Figure Skating Or Wu Shu Respectfully.

Perhaps The System Will Need To Take More Years And Time To Evolve Into Something That Moves Past Just Theoretically Making Sense With It's Intentions Into Something That Is More Practical And Reflects The Reality Of What We Do In Performance... To Me Like Many This Is More Than Sport. I Guess It's A Lot Of Trial And Error.

So Although I Can Understand The Reasons For People Wanting To Do This...(credibility, Fame, Money, Progression, Power, Evolution, Dreaming, Perspective, Future)

There Are Still Many Buggs To Be Worked Out, A Lot Of Un Answered Questions And Loop Holes... Bottom Line Is That What Is Considered Authentic To One Group Of People Doesn't Always Represent The Mentality Of What Is Authentic To Others....

If I Battle Someone And Execute Something Original With My Own Foundation Successfully But Lose To Someone Who Jus Mediocre But Has All The Elements....cause Of A Judging System...

Then That Means..

"the System Is Forcing Me To Break A Certain Way, It's Robbing Me Of My Ownership And Making Me Conform To What Is A Standard Based On Someone Else Mentality Of What Authenticity Is."

Breaking Has Never Been About This Notion To Me. However.. Maybe Because Our Culture And Dance Is Evolving In The World Perhaps We Need This Kind Of Push...

I Know What I Think And How I Feel Based On Experience And First Hand Account Of Being There As This System Was Born And Watched It Grow. I've Paid My Dues, Judged, Won And Lost Battles/tournaments Using This System

And I''l Leave This Open... Ya'll Can Think What You Feel Is Correct To You.

*frostflow
Ground Illusionz

[Shankavelli]

good shit frost flo,
i totaly get where your coming from,but wether a system has its ups and its downs, its only as good as who is marking the points.
i like dyzzes system, or i can tolerate any system, but if cats dont know what they are doing, tis worthless

[Drops SNC]

As an event promoter with BACK TO THE UNDERGROUND, we've used this system for years. It's dyzee's brain child, and he's spent years developing the concept and we've also invested dollars into building a back end computer system to make it run digitally in real time.

To me, this system has benifits as well as some draw backs, but in so many ways it accounts for a massive amount of problems that dominate the current bboy community judging and also provides huge opportunities that would not be available without a number system.

1) Biased judges
How are they accountable?

The system gives numbers - if they are constantly giving low scores to a crew you can see it. Visually they are exposed to the whole world with their bias. If they do that regularly, they obviously wont be hired again. But when they just are asked by a crew, "hey why'd we lose" the only peeps that hear tht answer is that angry crew, and no one really listens to the crew who is jawing about how they lost.

2) Elevating bboying scoring system to pay dancers
Call it a sport or not, where are we going if we can't make a living off of what we do?

Without a regulated scoring system we can't take it to the next level. There needs to be something transparent or at least visible to the public.
We can also now start collecting statistics on almost every dancer competing internationally. This could change the game.
THE KEY POINT - If this is CREATED BY DANCERS, FOR DANCERS we will have a system that represents our culture, and doesn't exploit its essence. This is why it has to be tested time and again and evaluated BY THE COMMUNITY. Even if you don't like it, respect what is trying to be done for everyone. We could be in danger of some sponsor grabbing our culture and investing while assuming control of the rules.... we do need a solution.

TORONTO FEEDBACK:
The trouble with our history here in Toronto is there is a massive amount of hate/beef with Supernaturalz (not saying prior peeps who commented) and this score system is ASSOCIATED with us because it was created by Dyzee. But really he uses it as an EVENT PROMOTER, not as a member of his crew. So if Supernaturalz win, which often happens being a really strong crew here, there is always discussion of rigging, bias etc. We can't get real feedback very often that isn't slanted by the beef in the community and their distaste for SNC winning.

Frost already seems to think its a Supernaturalz system. It's not. It's B2DU. Supernaturalz is a crew that's been around for 17 years, dyzee's been developing this system for years. Yes... but the crew has more members than the 3 people involved in B2DU, each with their own idea's of what bboying is to them and the crew has its own philosphies about the dance.


3) Can you score EVERY MOVE, EVERY STEP, EVERY BIT OF FLAVOUR?
Now we ask our judges to know every aspect of the dance extremely well, but are they all qualified?

How do you score a power vs style battle, HARD, but each category focuses on their own aspect of the dance. If its a power vs style, how is the person responding, battle strategy deals with that, is the footwork on beat - fundimentals, is the power on beat -fundimentals, creativity effects both categorys, execution - who was the cleaner of the two, Dynamics was the footwork dynamic and was the power dynamic?
Put those all together and it still can be a tie... but most likely not. One will have had better strategy and cleaner etc.
Putting sperate specialized experts in each category can improve the scoring of each category.

Some might say this seperation is a problem, others might say its a solution. I'd say watch the battle again and try to analyse with the definitions belown.


4) Each Category Defined
Until you fully understand what each category is designed to encompass and its purpose, don't suppose to understand the entire system and how it works. Even then you have to see the battle, review the numbers and analyse the judge that put forth those numbers. With this system THAT IS NOW POSSIBLE.

Dynamics - not simply blow ups - you can have dynamic style, attitude, footwork
Execution - clean. period. on all levels, tops, footowork, your dynamics, everything
Fundimentals - ARE YOU BBOYING, on beat, with the essence of the dances foundation - not simplyt the steps
Creative - Origonality of style, of moves, of form , of flavour
Battle Stragegy - Do you respond - is there a back and forth or is it just a bboy dancing, then another doing his own dance - bboying should have a response to his opponent - whether its responding with a routine and elevating with a stronger flavour then the previous crew's round



I hope you understand that more now.

To me, evolving the system through process is never ending. You have to get feedback, and learning from each battle. I think this was a major step and also a great response in terms of how people felt about their experience competing and also viewing this in real time.

From my experience, my only concern has simply been the BATTLE STRATEGY category. There are so many strategies its really hard to say who had a better one. How the momentum swings in the battle, who gets tired, do you answer routines, do you choose to not answer routines, are you going first or last, are you answering power with power and adding more style and FW, do you have more confidence at the end of your runs. There are so many ways to do this. From the last time me and dyz really talked about this category it was based on RESPONSE to the previous round. How did you answer and build of that other persons round.

To me, this is contentious, but (as dyzee has argued with me many times) the system allows for that by losing marks in that one round of the battle in order to change the way the other crew now has to answer their next round in order to win more points in battle strategy. (aka, footworker going in after a power mover (lose points), now the other crew has to answer with footwork and add on to that more in order to get more points) If they only answer with power again, they then lose battle strategy points.

This is based of the idea that dance is a back and forth conversation. One should respond to what was done before him or there is a disconnect.

When its all said and done, it's up to you if you like or dislike. I think there are strong points for why we need it, but I also think there will always be a place for small raw battles judged overall. But then again, this system is designed to give accountability and public visibility so it's not meant for the cypher or for the tiny local jam. I would ask for the communities respect in the efforts being made to elevate the dance and give it something that it needs to grow. Feedback is a part of the process, but I ask that you take time to understand the concept behind the system first.

Hope that helps.
Peace
Drops.

[dyzeesnd]

Yo everything that Ness has said is absolutely right. If the judges dont know what the heck they are doing, theres no point in having a system. We definately need the right people for the job. Someone who actually knows each category of the dance.
Yo Ness, i sent you a PM. I really need to contact you bro.

Frost, i totally understand what your saying, but i feel that you do not understand the system fully. Maybe it has changed over time, or maybe you only know of an old version of the system. But for your example about

"f I Battle Someone And Execute Something Original With My Own Foundation Successfully But Lose To Someone Who Jus Mediocre But Has All The Elements....cause Of A Judging System...

Then That Means..

"the System Is Forcing Me To Break A Certain Way, It's Robbing Me Of My Ownership And Making Me Conform To What Is A Standard Based On Someone Else Mentality Of What Authenticity Is."

The system doesnt work like that! You should know that. You have to win 3 out of the 5 categories. Not someone who does all of them. You have to prove that you are better out of the 3. For example, lets just say that your more original, but the guy you battle has better foundation than you, executes better than you, battles better than you and has better and harder moves than you, then shouldnt he win??? However on the flip side, You can be originial and still win agianst anyone. As long as you prove your more original, and atleast execute better and battle better. Lets talk about it when i get back to Canada on the 15th.

This system does not force you to break a certain way, it was designed so that you can break the way that YOU WANT TO. Let me repeat myself. In all the 16 years that ive been breakin (1 more year and i can enter the veteran battle at pro-am) I have found that there are 5 different ways to view bboying/battles.
1. The foundational/fundamental view of bboying, including the swagger, confidence, bronx style, musicality, rhythem, finesse. Now if anyone doesnt understand this, I suggest you stop trying to learn foundation from watching clips and take a class from a seasoned legend such as kenswift, Alieness, Poe One etc, just to name a few.
2. The Originality/Artistic/style/creativity/ view. Back in the day, if you rock someone elses steez, ,moves, styles... you would be called wack, a biter. You had to make up your own moves, your own steps, your own style, etc. If anyone thinks that this isnt important.... then your never gonna be in the history books like ness, kenny, legs, kmel, abstract, cloud, etc etc etc.
3. the Dynamics/Technique/Difficulty/Blowups/Tricks view. Now i dont care what anyone thinks but who didnt get into the dance because you saw some cool ass crazy moves and was like, yo, i wanna do that too. Im not saying that this is the most important aspect of the dance, but why should it be the least? All the greats were known for having everything, including some amazing Techniques.
4. Execution/Cleanliness/Finesse view. Before i go further into it, why wouldnt someone want to execute their style, their moves and their confidence??? Who actuallly thinks its wrong to force someone to execute their style and moves????
5. The battle view. This is pretty much the forgotten aspect of bboying due to the enormous amounts of styles and techniqes that is present in the bboy community. Back in the day, if someone threw at you swipes, you would burn it with better swipes. If someone threw at you footwork, you would show them how to do real footwork! Now theres more to battling than just answering to the styles and techniques thrown at you, but I suggest that if you dont know what it is, to buy Alieness book and learn closely about what battling is.

So with that being said, and if anyone understands these categories, they should be able to see that it doesnt force you do anything you dont want to, but instead it allows you express yourself the way you want to dance. But its not just about expressing yourself, its also about putting your craft to the test, seeing how it will do in a real battle. If someone proves to be better than you in 3 or more of these categories in a battle, then you should face it, you lost.

Anyway, props to the peeps on this thread who are actually taking the time to think about it and write intelligent and well thought out posts instead of "F the system! F the world! F bboying becoming proffesional! F making money! F becoming famous and travelling around the world! F making judges accountable for their decisions, F the sponsors who pays for these big events! F the people who are interested in watching breaking and want to be able to understand it!"

[Swift Nyce]

Originally Posted by Bas

offcource not cause now a days sets are a mix off all, and if the judges only judge on that one move in that set they're nor gonna get the whole picture.

like footwork into a single flare back to footwork, you gonna let someone judge that single flare- offcource not, because that flare is part off that whole footwork transition, jet its a powermove

bboying is not power footwork toprock or freezes- it is all that and more, breaking runs down in single categorys just won't work because off that.

judges just need to know what is up!!!!! be alround!!!! having a good understanding on power footwork tops and freezes!!!!, i know enough judges who don't seem to know that a flare to 1990 with your leg draging all over the floor is cheating and simply reward that shit

if you are all around then you will get points in every category that is simple shit... its not rocket science ... you do no footwork or power or top rock but only do freezes and tricks.. then you are gonna get less points... if you are good you can throw many moves if not then get your ass to training... not that hard stop trying to want a judging system that lets the loser win.... like today so many ppl that should of lost wins.... but that is becuase we dont have a good judging system

[y0ukeun]

Originally Posted by Shankavelli

good shit frost flo,
i totaly get where your coming from,but wether a system has its ups and its downs, its only as good as who is marking the points.
i like dyzzes system, or i can tolerate any system, but if cats dont know what they are doing, tis worthless

WORD.

As for judging with point systems, I don't see what the big deal is. I think it's a great idea. I don't know about this particular one that was used, but point systems are almost necessary I think...

[Shankavelli]

yo dyzee, i read your pm, and i repsonded to it.
unfortunatlely one of the biggest alieien ness haters has access to everyones pms and abuses that fact.
chances are, since your pm could benefit me, he intercepted it on your ened since i already caught it on my end.
but i know for sure i responded it.
get my wifeys number from puzzles, she is back home in toronto now, and she will hook you up with all my info

[aghs]

@ Drops and Dyzee: Thanks for those posts guys, I have to admit to being a bit cynical about a points system, but you guys cleared up a load of queries and apprehensions I had, especially regarding the "Battle" category.

[Shankavelli]

Originally Posted by aghs

@ Drops and Dyzee: Thanks for those posts guys, I have to admit to being a bit cynical about a points system, but you guys cleared up a load of queries and apprehensions I had, especially regarding the "Battle" category.

dude i was always anti point systems until dyzee broke down this one to me

[erwin123]

Originally Posted by Shankavelli

dude i was always anti point systems until dyzee broke down this one to me

You know normally i dont agree with Ness but this time we on the same page.

I think its dope that every style of breaking get the same opportunity, for example a crew like freakshow VS rocksteady:

before the music start the judges, crowed etc know already who is gona win, due the stereo type of image of what a bboy should look like., since hiphop doesnt discriminate on race, sexuality, the way you look, or the skillzz you choose to do.

it should judged only on what happens in the battle and i think this system will help improve the process maybe not a 100% but atleast we move into a new direction that can open doors.

props to Dyzee and all the promoters that are willing to use different judging systems and are not scared to be criticized trying to fix the battle scene, instead of having random judges picking there friends to win competitions.

[Shankavelli]

Originally Posted by erwin123

You know normally i dont agree with Ness but this time we on the same page..

free your mind and the rest will follow