New judging system?

[Shankavelli]

Originally Posted by bboy_Stryfe

the system sounds great and all but i dont understand why most people in t.dot hating on it :|?
:|

people will always hate on something just cause they didnt think about it first. subconciouly humans do that shit.
i cn recall numorous times when cats said something i mightve done was wack, but in todays scene everyone sis doing the exact same thing i droped first. thats the way it goes.
i am 100% PRO making breaking a dance sport and im working on thar with the octogon and another surprise event, both will be on espn.
and because it will be on espn there might have to be a judging system.
this same topic was put on my forumand here is what my wife had to say about the situation......

***********quote**********
i was at the NBL jam in NYC last weekend where there used a 10 point system... in theory, it will help even the playing field - crew against crew, rather than one member against another.

the problem is that the point system doesn't have any real value assigned to it. the judges seem to be pulling random numbers out their collective asses.

what they need to do is assign a value system for each move on the technical side, then a seperate set of values for the artistic side. then the routines would need to have common elements to make it fair so that points could get assigned evenly across the board.

the way they are implementing it is flawed, but there is value down the road.

this will not resolve politics and favrotism though.. thats just how sports are.

ps- i'm not talking out my ass... i was a competitive figure skater for 13 years.

********end quote************

now, what i made in bold is the exact same thing i was trying to say about getting the proper judges (mind you my wife and i never spoke on the subject.but both of us being cmopetitors in a a sport with judges have the same views.

mind you one of the judges at NBL is someone who has openly admited letting hatred for one crew bend his descision on the battle, how he is still judging jams "i have no idea"
in any other sport, a judge or a ref openly admites to something like that, they revoke his liscense

[Shankavelli]

on a side note, sometimes the best breaker doesnt win a battle with point systems, only the smartest one who can adapt to the system.
that theory was proven in nyc at a jam called BBOY ALLSTARS.
when the promoter announced at the jam about the system they were using i called him out on it and said it wasnt fair to the serious bboy, only to the smartest one. he said my claims was rediculous so to prove my point i entered the battle.
i won the solo battle, even tho i shouldve lost to kom3 frm breaks crew, then i turned around in the same jam and entered the crew battle with a young ready to rock who never won anything in nyc and won that battle aswell the same day.
it all depends on the system.
man, the memories, big up to kom3 for doing his thing, he shouldve won that battle

[FrostimusPrime]

my last post on this subject, respectfully

[FrostimusPrime]

NESS-
"good shit frost flo,
i totaly get where your coming from,but wether a system has its ups and its downs, its only as good as who is marking the points.
i like dyzzes system, or i can tolerate any system, but if cats dont know what they are doing, tis worthless"


Everyone knows I'm open minded, I respect whatever works and is truth. I have to lay my pride down down because of my position in the scene here, that being said I'm reflecting on what I think is proper....but that's just my vision out of many, although reflective of many as well.

I understand and respect that if our culture and dance should be taken to the next level then this is something will happen eventually, true? I'm down for talking more about it and understanding it because I'm open and I have reason behind my opinions. Also i'm proud of Toronto and I care about where things are going. I have my own views on what i think is quality and authentic. The post Dyz and jon dropped is good cause it explains a mentality and is showing a "work in progress".

To drops.
SNC wins because they work very hard but also.. they made up the system.. Sorry G, I always think this. to me you guys made the rules and prepared for the rules which makes sense to me. And when you guys reap the benefits and share them or contribute something that will eventually work (when you try hard enough with anything, it'll work) THEN you'll be celebrating about how you guys are revolutionary and finally found a way to leave your part of Toronto's legacy, which I feel you guys should have something for representing our country and working hard, you needed to find your own path... the brats had theirs and BTX had theirs. real talk... To me as long as your intentions are good and you're respect other peoples space and voices.

why and how can I say this about B2DU or SNC?.... again I'll stress that I was there even before you started breaking Jon and I was battling through every stage of B2DU's development (From 99 until 2003 Ground illusionz won 9 B2DU tournaments) ....it was more Dyz who took the cred for starting it cause it was his responsibility at the time and idea of course. He tried his best for the breakers, i believe he really did... even though it made our community more separated from the other elements, it's not his fault for trying and doing something that in reality helped to motivate some of the current crews still breaking in Toronto today.

However, SNC and Dyz were sononimus and everyone knows b2du at heart is Dyzee's thing and the staff and creators and redevelopers are SNC (regardless if people think different within... it's like that with every crew/band/group etc.) I know you guys have tried to get others involved in it including myself cause I was curious... But because I feel there is a type of hegemony on the community I'd rather stay neutral (GI is it's own island) until there is clearer understanding from everyone about everyones intentions. So I wanna say thanks for trying to be inclusive but I hope you understand my reasons for saying what i gotta say.

Dyzee
in theory it works, I was bred on this since I started battling in your comps at 17 and I'm sure in time it'll work even better, i understand more over time what you're trying to do. I'm proud of you for following your dreams, I've watched you grow just like you've watched me. However I still have my perspectives on what I feel is quality and authentic breakin' based on all my other influences.

which leads me to say to Ness
-thanks for that post on the "teachers"
I'm a student/teacher myself and I respect that.
I look forward with a lot of excitement to fill in that thread with tribute
cause I also give respect where it's due and give appreciation for those who've helped me out


FROSTflow
GROUND ILLUSIONZ[/quote]

[Shankavelli]

no doubt frost,
in the long run thast what publc forums are all about, people SHARING oppinions (without hate or biased) and in the end everyone can grow.
see you in toronto

[Drops SNC]

Frost,

First of all, nothing but respect for you and your work growing new talent and teaching the culture. I have so much love for people who work hard and give back even though life demands so much of you just to pay the rent. Mikey's Unity is a beautiful thing and so is the strong youth base you've cultivated out in your area.

I think the Screwface Toronto mentality taints our ability to grow together without distrust. I think this is a wall that needs to be taken down.

You even said: "He tried his best for the breakers, i believe he really did... even though it made our community more separated from the other elements, it's not his fault for trying and doing something that in reality helped to motivate some of the current crews still breaking in Toronto today."

So if he tried his best and worked so hard for the breakers and made a positive difference... Why are you still questioning "Intentions?" I think all elements of hip hop have naturally specialized and kind of drifted respectively. Coming back together should be a focus in the future no doubt.

Toronto hate is so blinding. It dominates not just in the bboy scene, but for MC's, writers and sometimes DJ's. Working together is how community elevates, but this shit divides us now.

I look at what I've done in the time i've been with B2DU, and I see all the negativity that Dyzee dealt with even before I came on board EVEN after he worked so hard to make those jams happen when nothing else was going down...... And I felt that negativity hit me with about 10 different beefs a single day after I joined SNC and later after I began working with b2du.... BUT I also have seen such positivity and those who B2DU has really meant so much to, inspired, motivated, and given them venues to express.

Now when you call us a HEGEMONY, are you calling those cats hating rebels or patriots? Is our community really that far divided? And how does that make you feel?

Polarizing community is never our intention, but many others would love to keep it that way. We never set out simply to DOMINATE the scene, but rather we wanted to work to make it grow and give opportunities to our scene it never could have without our work. But people always hate success and here we are.

I don't stay neutral. I'll tell you right now, IM HERE TO BUILD A STRONGER BBOY SCENE. DOPER TALENT THAT LOVES THE CULTURE, KNOWS ITS HISTORY AND HAS PLACES TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND COMPETE. PLUS A SCENE THAT WANTS TO WORK TOGETHER TO TEACH AND GROW. Anyone who's on that tip im 100% down to support in anyway I can.

Thats it. Thats my intentions.

SNC and B2DU are different. That is what I'm saying. We have different goals, different ideas. As a dancer I think differently than when I'm throwing an event. I use my dancer to inform my descisions when organizing an event NOT MY CREW ALLEGIANCE. And for me, I don't compete in my own events in order to remain impartial and ultimately I want to keep what I do credible and I don't allow my crew to sway my business. Even me, lethal and dyzee all have different views in B2DU and we have different views about Bboying itself as well.

To say B2DU and SNC are the same is not true but still you would like to think they are. I'm simply giving you my perspective.
That is what i'm saying.

To you they might be easy to say their synonimous, but to us, we take great efforts to try to seperate our business and our crew. We even make our crew pay to enter our jams like everyone else.
And you say we know the system better than everyone else, you've seen the efforts we've made to get knowledge out there about the system. From holding talk panels about the system before the events, to lengthy forum discussions on b2du forum, plus of course our regular face to face convo.

People would rather say it's wack then not try to understand it. But they still come to the jam and compete knowing the system is being used, then complain after..... We tried to explain...

Anyway.
Respect and love for this culture.
Keep doing yours and hopefully someday we can build together.
peace.
drops.

[Ill Switch]

Yo I feel like this system is good for making bboying look more "professional" and what not I aint the biggest fan of it still though....but at the end of the day ha ha if you aint feelin the fuckin system... don't enter the fuckin battle peace!!!!

[koreankev]

Originally Posted by dyzeesnd

Yo Ness. That is freakin crazy man!! No wonder you havent been returning my Private messages! Ok ill ask for it from your wifey.

KoreanKev,
I totally understand your questions and concerns which you have stated above... and let me assure you that this system was designed so that you arent forced to dance according to the categories. If you look at what each category means, you will see that they are all things that bboys SHOULD be doing, however not forced or limited to doing since the way the winner is deteremnined is by winning majority of the categories. For instance, lets say a super powerhead wants to win a battle. His foundation is average and his originality is average too. He most likely will win in the Dynammics/Techniqe category, as long as he Executes better and Battles better, then he can win without havinging to be forced to become a foundation dancer or have to be original. In this system, any style has a fair chance of winning. I just want to remind you that a full detailed documentary explanation will be released about the system. Its 11 years in the making and its really worth keeping an open mind.
Peace

ahhh understood.
sems like it would be a pretty complicated though, in terms of mathematically.
since its round for round, you say they have to win 3 out of 5
people watching, or the bboys themselves would have a pretty difficult time running them ath in their heads on who won the battle
unless you have a pretty legit elctronic scoring system right?
and what ties? say one bboy gets 2, 3, 5, 5, 5 and the other gets 2, 2, 5, 5, 5
you said they have to win 3, but they both tied in three,
so does the person with the most points in the other categories gets the win?
and doesnt that go back to the conforming to a bboy standard subject?

and another complication is,
what if some guy does a really dope power set,
and scores 3, 3, 5, 5, 5 (5s in dynamics, battle etc)
and then another guy comes out and does an even DOPER power set and completely burns him,
but they have to be scored the same
how would that work?
would the judge take back the previous score and give him a 4?

sorry, all these questions keep popping in my head
im just trying to understand your judging system better
if the answers to these questions are in the detailed explanation then you dont have to answer

[EDSMASTER]

I like Dyzee's system. It's alot better than 90% of the other approaches out there ..

My concern is if I want to be a future judge under Dyzee's system is it safe to say that if I innovated in one of the 5 areas mentioned within the categories looked upon, does that qualify me to be a judge? In other words and as an immediate example, I am sick at Airmoves and have do things nobody has ever done with Bboying in that aspect of the dance, thus I would be a Innovator in that respect. I lose lets say in most battles under Dyzee's system because as a Bboy I am not well-rounded which is a no brainer to understand, but as an Innovator Airmover and unmatched would that qualify me to be a Power judge for a future event?

I tend to judge and prefer a round for round approach to bboy battles so that I can be exact in my opinion to what a dancer actually did within each and every round for the crew or person they battled against. I also have 2 scores that I give out at the end of the battle. One that represents the amount of rounds that were won by each dancer/crew and another that represents a score that is categorized just like Dyzee's system. At the end of the battle I find its easier to look at each individual round and determine if Power, Style, Originality, Team Work, Etc, Etc, was performed and at what level it was performed at because I have a box for the judge to put their own symbol or mark of some sort that they can create on their own to help them remember what was done within that respective round in order to give the second score later.

For me, I use letters, so if a competitors footwork is what stood out in that round, than I can put "FW" in their Box to represent what I liked or didn't like and so on and so forth anything else they do. My approach is much like Dyzee's except, were as Dyzee's is done while the battle is going off, for my approach its a secondary process that is done after the battle....

If you look at my YouTube Channel, you can see a copy of my score system diagram (I.B.S.S.) that is used for each battle on the front page and the newspaper "Breakin Grounds" that the I.B.S.S. was published back in 2003.

[dyzeesnd]

Thanks Pan for your comments. And yes, if you are an innovator and truly understand what it means to be dynamic/Technique, then yes you should be able to judge. This only way this system will work is if we are able to get the right judges for each category.

Koreankev
Hey, i know your really curious about the system. Im here in Korea right now and im leaving on the 15th. If you want, Id be happy to meet up and i can answer all your questions regarding the system, how it works and how it came to be.

My number is 010-5811-0523
Thats my temporary korean mobile number

Peace!

[koreankev]

i would love to meet up with you dyzee,
its an honor that you would go through the trouble to meet up with an unknown bboy
to explain your scoring system

but i live in Hawaii lol
dont worry about answering my questions, im sure they'll be answered after R16

btw i love bboyworld forums,
its unreal to me how i can interact with the more well known bboys around the world through it

[DJRenegade]

A system of judging is NEEDED in this dance.
While I don't think this one is perfect(yet), it's a very good start by someone who has taken a LOT of time and effort to make it happen.
It's an open system.
All the details are there for anyone willing to listen/read.
Dyzee is also willing to discuss and defend his system.
It will need to be refined but I've spoken to Dyzee and he's not closed minded to adaptation.
It's gonna take time people but we NEED a system.
People need to stop panicking like it's gonna destroy breaking or whatever.
It's much better to have a transparent system than to have judging like I've seen at MANY recent jams where no one is accountable and the judging makes NO sense.

Kev