R16 2010 | Final Battle Jinjo vs Maximum

[Swift Nyce]

Originally Posted by omarJIVETURKEYS

Just a few questions about the system????

Who decides which judge judges what category?

Why hire, 1,3, or 5 judges to use one judges system?

What if the other judges don't agree to the system?

My opinion:

No matter what system is used, in the end it still comes down to each persons opinion, right?
For example one judge might think a certain move is hard, while another might think it's easy. So depending on which category each judge is judging the points could be altered, right? Meaning it could be a completely different outcome depending on who judges what.

I'll use myself as an example, let's say I judged moves or what not. I gave the crew or person a 5. The person next to me was judging power and gave the crew or person a 5 as well. BUT if I was judging the power I would have only gave it a 4. And the person to my left would have gave the move I gave a 5 a 3..... See where I'm going with this?

Let's say 3 judges used the point system, and each judged all categories. I'm sure a few of them might have drastic differences (I've seen it happen using this system before in France) So once again I come back to who get's to pick who judges which category? And the person who picks even that is still using his own opinion on who he THINKS, in his own OPINION should judge each category, right? So basically it seems like it comes down to that person, which is usually a promoter I would think (who is hiring judges to judge) to pick who should judge each category. And if it's one of the judges who picks who judges what category, everything is basically going to fall back onto his opinion about how he thinks each category should be judged and by whom.

Plus why break it down that way? Why only 5 categories, why not 10 or 3, or 11, etc? Who decides what falls into what category? Which I'm sure can be debated as well. Plus it just seems to take the feeling out of judging the battle as well. Like judges can be replaced by robots someday who just give points haha.

In the end if you tell someone well you lost because I gave you 3 points and the other judges gave them 5 points. It's still each judges opinion, and the person who is battling might have a different opinion from the judges still.....which I feel is important to this dance. If we only use systems like this, them it truly does become more like a sport, def more competition than battling, etc. And then you're going to have people, crews, whatever dancing a certain way that they feel like score them points. So if someone wants to express themselves truly but feels they need to dance a certain way to "score points" then that just takes away from the dance it's self.

Anyways just my opinion about the system. I feel round per round based on each judges opinion is simpler and fair as long as the judges aren't biased, paying attention, and fully educated on the dance.


Oh and I didn't even see the whole battle was more interested in the judging system.

PEACE!!!

they said it like over 50 times... they will explain it in the future... but you had some good points

[CODmasterJYK]

Personally, I think it's a good idea. I just think that you should make the definitions of each category completely clear. I completely agree with the goals the system is trying to achieve. See, when non-bboys watch a battle, they really don't understand what's going on. All they wanna see is headspins and tricks without any real understanding of the dance. Let's be real. The Average Joe doesn't know shit about breaking.

It seems like the system really tries to give viewers more of an explanation of what the dance is about. I think it's a good way to educate the average viewer.

But yeah, just a few tips (solely my opinion):

1) I think it's important that you clearly define each category distinctly and concretely--removing any potential room for misinterpretation and big arguments. Because arguments all come down to different underlying assumptions/values (i.e. - assuming a word means something different). I think this will help the process more streamlined and, therefore, professional.

2) Be sure to explain the system clearly to EVERYONE. Because from what I know, a lot of bboys are maaad traditional and hate any form of change. So they'd be liable to assume negatives from brief explanations instead of taking the time to research the system properly. It seems that all the people you've talked to about it agree with you. I think it'd help to communicate through an efficient and widespread medium.

3) I know you said that the card system will be changed to the electronic system, but yeah. That's a good idea, because it might make the crews too self-conscious, focusing on the judges instead of really expressing themselves. Just make sure the electronic system doesn't show scores until the end of the battle... or only shows to the audience.

But yeah, those are just my 2 cents.

Obviously because the system's so new, a lot of people are gonna hate on it. I guess all you can really do is let 'em hate, and try to explain yourself as thoroughly as possible. Respect to Dyzee for his hard work and contributions to the game.



To all others, please try to understand the system before downgrading it. If you don't like some of the ideas, then you have every right to object respectfully. However, saying the system "sucks dick" and calling the judges "fucking idiots" isn't really gonna get you anywhere. Because honestly, do you think that dyzee's gonna even care to consider your opinion if you've disrespected him like that? It's common sense.

Second, honestly who the hell do you think you're talking to? This is Dyzee: a huge innovator and contributor to the game. In any culture, we are taught to respect the older generation. This is why Americans celebrate their founding fathers and pay homage to WWII veterans. This is why we respect our parents, grandparents, and older siblings. Same logic applies for bboy culture. These people sacrifice everything to allow us to experience a culture we enjoy. The least we can do is respect them.

I'm not saying you can't disagree with the system. I'm just saying that you can do so respectfully.

Neway, these are just my thoughts. Peace and love to everyone.

[dyzeesnd]

Thank you to those who express their concerns about the system respectully and very intelligently.
The categories will be more than explained very shortly. I just ask for your patience since the creation of documents for each category are in the process of being made (and by some of the most respected people in each category as well!)
Your questions about who is going to decide who judges who is also going to be answered quite soon aswell. Be sure that we have looked real far into the future to assure fairness and proffesionalism while maintaining the true essence of the dance, and at the same time encouraging growth. That is our main goal.
If anyone has any other questions, please feel free to ask, however I suggest to read the entire thread juist incase some of your questions may already been addressed.
Peace

[bboy spirit]

A long and interesting thread, after reading the whole lot here's my opinion...

Respect to Dyzee for trying to evolve a system whereby larger bboy competitions can be understood by those new to the game (we all were once remember?).

Despite a decent explanation of what each number means for each category the fundamentals of this dance form are against point scoring. It is an expressive art but as someone already mentioned once judges are introduced and a competition with a prize etc then it does take on elements of sport.

However, even in its rawest sense a battle can be judged, and will always be judged based on someone's opinion (hence the 'better' the judge the fairer the outcome theoretically) and this should remain even in the most commercial of events to allow people to understand the raw, explosive, spontaneity of this dance.

Put simply I think that a round for round system could be scored based on who each judge thought won that round. This could be an overall opinion from each judge, recorded electronically and totalled at the end, or could be a opinion limited to their category (but importantly it would make them decide who won the round in that area). Results should not be displayed until the end to avoid distraction and blunting of expression (trying to score points instead of dance).

Basically I'm saying keep things pretty much the same but having the decision recorded after each round would help to avoid mistakes (ie from poor memory, for example when one crew kills their last round or two so everyone forgets that they were losing every round up until that point).

Finally just to clarify, rounds could be tied (lets face it in competitions like R16 often the differences between winning and losing are tiny as both crews are respected pros at the top of their game) in which case no score would be given to either crew... this would allow for crowds to appreciate how close a battle was (ie a low scoring battle would mean many tied rounds).

[blackee]

at first sorry for my English but I'll try it... I think this system can work because if you are disagree with the decision maybe the judges can show and explain you why the decision it is so. because in a lot of battles when you lost and you ask the judges why you lost, so the answer will be like; because the other crew was better, ok its a little bit exaggerated but something like that without an serious explanation.

I think you don't need urgently a computer to count the points, I think a good idea is when you count and write the points on a "paper" and at the end of a battle the judges can sum the points and each judge of each category shows his decisions by hand like the "old" system. so it's not necessary demonstrate the points each round because it could disrupt the battle, the crews and the judges as well.

I don't know how it is in a battle when you see all the time the scores because I never danced in a competition with this kind of judging when you see all the time the points but I imagine you are very concentrated when you dance to see what will be your score and not really how I answer or how I'll to act of the dancer before maybe it's wrong what I say but I think it could be.

in my opinion it's a great idea to decide in various categories and to count the point's it's a fair kind to judge a bboy competition.

[dyzeesnd]

The system has always been used on paper. It works fine, except when the bboys dont try to take the time to see what the judges scored. Instead of checking to see what the judges thought of them specifically in each and every round (and in detail) they take the pressure off of the judges by saying, its cuz the system!
The objective of the computer program is to make what the judges are thinking transparent for everyone to see, including the bboys and the audience. If the bboys are being destracted by the refelction of their performance, then they should try to consider just focusing on the battle. Ive been in battles where I had to shut out people yelling all types of things to me, and sometimes you have to treat a battle like its between you and your opponent. Block everything else out except for how to defeat your opponent and take away his confidence.

[MrVue]

bboying seems to be more mainstream

[killafrik]

jinjo wins by 7 points!! lol had to pull out my calculator on that one,, big ups to dyzee on puttin his idea in effect, hopefully it turns into something, i have to say its a lot of math and most people especially spectators ain't tryin to do math for entertainment. And bboys for sure ain't tryin to calculate that many numbers, maybe keep it a lil bit more simple? just a thought.. Seeing alot of innovations in this bboy game, keep it up everyone workin to make the future of bboying even more amazing!!!

WWW.WORLDOFDANCE.COM
1ST STOP LOS ANGELES, 4/10/10

[dyzeesnd]

Hey killafrik. Thanks for the postive criticism
I was stating earlier in earlier post that this version is not the final version of the computer program system. We ask that everyone be patient to see the new finished upgrated program at R16 world finals on July 2nd and 3rd. We definately do not want the spectators to do any math or have to bring calculators to the battle. LOL
Thank you for your questions and concerns. Just want to assure you that the questions that people have been asking have already been taken account for.
Peace

[iverson59]

I think Omar had some strong points...

However, I've always thought that a basic round per round counting points system is a bad idea, because
a first matchup could be close beteween 2 Bboys, and a second matchup could be a total ownage with one of the bboys destroying the other, on the scoresheet it will still be 1-1.... But in people's minds, one of the crews would have taken the lead

[DoL_GoEs_ApeS]

I feel that this new judging system is not that bad, because how can judges be biased when there focusing on the aspect there judging, and it forces bboys/bgirls to be more versatile. SO some bboys who do strictly power may not do to well, where as in bboys who can do it all will dominate.

My only beef with the new system is the cards. I feel they are to distracting.

[bboyufo]

I say give this system to all the big international battles but leave it out of the little jams.