An in depth look at Biting among other things by BBoy Mantis (serious dialogue)

[mantiis_en_zk]

Usual Mantis Disclaimer: Don't bother replying if you don't read the entire thing. We all know the kids on here could use some well thought out information so please avoid skimming the post and making silly replies. (This applies to the smartass' too)

Topic of the day: Biting.
Ok... well biting and lots of tangents.

In general there is a large problem within the breaking community right now, at least in the USA especially, but worldwide i'm sure as well. This problem is the blind leading the blind, especially when it comes to intricate teachings like biting...
A lot of kids are teaching themselves in groups (HS, college) and not getting taught by anyone with experience and knowledge. This dynamic also leads to internal problems within 1st generation crews because nobody has a voice of "authority" when trying to guide others or settle arguements. Also on places like the bboyworld forums, you have kids breaking for less than a year blurting out their distorted personal views on breaking concepts and philosophies, filling other kids heads with loads of bullshit, when posts by people who are respected in the bboy community are falling on deaf ears. There is a "me too" complex that kids are falling into. They go looking for information and end up agreeing with whatever ideas the most kids agree with on a thread. Monkey see, monkey do.
Like was mentioned at the BBoy Summit panel, nobody is being soned anymore, which is to say taken under someone's wing and taught the ropes of hiphop and breaking. The most important part of a bboy's development is the beginning. Just like a newborn baby, they have to be nurtured with the correct teachings that will create their bboy morality. The "rules" that a bboy is given or creates for himself in order to understand breaking will stick with them for a long time and create their bias for years to come. If you teach a bboy not to bite from day 1, they will take it as a "rule" of the "game". This happened with me so I know it works. My friend Gino only knew a little bit about breaking when he got me into it but one important thing he said when I watched my first video was that biting was not supposed to be done; more specifically: Do not take moves from anyone.
See to a beginning bboy back in the 99-2001 range, there were MANY bboys out there that had their own styles. They were like superheros or video game characters. Each had a name and their own arsenal of moves. The seperation of styles back then was very apparent. Nowadays every city has a bboy of every "type", but years ago styles were carried by crews or cities.
If you saw a bboy from Miami, you would know where he was from because of the combination of power with footwork and a bit of abstracton in his style away from being strictly oldschool.
If you saw a bboy from cali, you would see the emphasis on the blowup rather than things like footwork. There was also a phase of "silly" moves that went on in Cali from what I understand.
A bboy from New york, well; generally they would maintain the no BS agressive, quick style which was usually many footwork techs, burns, and flavor in their go downs and how they get up from the floor. Airflares weren't yet the hot move so people were mainly doing groundpower.
BBoys from Sourpatch and others were just starting to bring out the whole different "look" and attitude that a lot of people try to pull off now.
The uber-flexible breaking style was only done by a handful of people. You could count the names of those flexible bboys on the east coast on one hand.
A bboy from Toronto back in 99-2001 I must say was impressive to me, only because it was a huge preface to what you see today in regards to "abstract" footwork styles. There weren't a whole lot of American bboys going to Toronto back then, and when my friends and I started visiting from college there was a HUGE difference between what you would see there and what was in the states. (Note: Megus' big shine came at Pro-am 99, when people were amazed by his footwork.) (Also note that I am aware of single bboys carrying complex footwork styles long before 2000, I am merely speaking on the concentration of these types of people at this time in TO) I remember when I first told people in Philadelphia about Dyzee, nobody would believe me that there was this guy with crazy footwork that I hadn't seen anywhere else. Crackerzacks thought I was talking about Dizzy from Motion Disorders, and blew it off. It was't until Rocksteady anniv. and 1st degree burn that people really saw Dyzee down here. The fact is: Going to Toronto back in those days you could find a lot of dope different footwork styles that were fully explored. People were not just doing normal footwork and then doing a lego leg which is when you sweep one leg around the other very quickly (seen everywhere now, but no where then), bboys had complete footwork styles to make up for their lack of powermoves. (Toronto had VERY little power back then). Threading, illusions, flow, a lot of these things were foreign to the USA back then. Hell I even coined the term "American Threading" as a joke back then because how basic most americans version of threads was "Thread one leg - roll over still holding your foot - thread the leg again in reverse". Cats STILL do this lol.
But I digress. The point is that each city back then or crew within a city had their own style, and you could tell when someone bit the style. Since there was no bboyworld.com back then, and I hadn't created ewoknation.com yet, there was a serious lack of footage on the net. You only had 3 options:
1. Buy a VHS of a jam.
2. Get underground footage by trading.
3. Actually go somewhere and see bboys.

And since there was a lot less traveling then, you would know when you would see bboys from outside the city, and if they started doing your city's style somewhere else it would show right away because they would standout in their own city.
Currently, it is the complete opposite of this. The flood of video into the internet combined with the lack of teachings and guidance accompanying them has created micropockets of different styles all over the world. You have people doing 20 different styles that began in 20 different places, all in the same city. So naturally crew battles have become more boring to watch because you will basically see clones of eachother battling, when it used to be different style versus different style, but in the same category (power, footwork, blowups).

Nobody understands the difference between "influenced by" and "bitten from" anymore. Mad kids say they influenced by people and they just chomping moves or the style. Influenced means you take a general concept and do something totally different and new with it. If you straight up look at someone and take something of theirs, and add it to your own arsenal, thats biting. Also its bullshit to steal someone's transitions or threads and then end it differently. Who's to say they don't do that too? The small piece of a throwdown that you pick out as something you want to take might be the only part of that throwdown that is completely original by that bboy. So the arguement that it isn't biting because it isn't the entire set, move for move is flawed.
Heres a personal example:
I started breaking with friends who had no idea how to break, just like myself. For a year and a half, I was not that amazing. I had dope airfreezes after a while, but my footwork was still not that dynamic. We didn't bite from videos so our progress was limited; however each of of looked very different and pretty original already. And we were having FUN. We had a blast! I had been exposed to Toronto footwork, but was not attempting to imitate it. It wasn't until I asked Puzzles (Then a solo bboy, now in Supernaturalz crew) to help me with footwork that I began to get better in that area. In one 30 minute session, he taught me a few things I could do to improve my footwork. It was maybe 3 "moves" or steps, and a couple concepts. Puzzles was taught by Megus and also influenced by people like Dyzee who were his friends. (Also note that Megus was once a part of Supernaturalz and carried that style). Dyzee also told me a lot of philosophies about footwork in general later on.
My influences I would say are Vee(PK) and maybe a little Jester(SNC) later on.
Now the only thing I got from Vee and Jester was the idea to "move outside the box" which was the typical sixstep/footwork circle which is mostly "legwork" which is throwin your legs around in your footwork (non-steps) (and i consider Vee and Jester to be the Northeast Pioneers of this style) and also using your hands for more intricate things. I didnt take any "moves" from either of them.
And look at me now. I have a mad original style with tons of threads and steps nobody does in the bboy scene except me, and not only that but I share almost no moves with Puzzles, Dyzee, Vee or Jester which were my influences and mentors.
So people who complain about it not being possible to "not bite" thats a steaming pile of bullshit.

[mantiis_en_zk]

The post was too long so here is the rest of it:


so the alternative is to develop your own style..
Will you blow up and be famous in 1 year? no...
Will you within the span of a few years develop a unique style and character and be remembered longer than the bandwagon bboys? YES.

people are expecting to be professionals after 1 year.... thats the problem, and that is also why people feel pressured to bite. You might not find your moves until 3-4 years in. Nobody used to be expected to be dope until several years in. A lot of kids are just trying to get all the freezes and neglect the rest of the dance, attempting to leapfrog their way into being doper.

I think the main issue is that there are categorically, people who are creative... and people that don't have one creative bone in their body. It doesnt mean theres no hope for those people... but the respectful thing to do is ask people to learn concepts/philosophies, and maybe even some steps but not to just bite. There is a breakdown in communication in the bboy community. Not only with the Old School heads, and the younger bboys, but even with heads that started 5-8 years ago and the people that started after bboyworld.com was created. People are afraid to ask questions, and people are so competitive that they would rather bite from someone they respect and use the move against them, rather than to ask that person questions and receive guidance from them. Styles have broken down to individuals. Nobody has a story of how their style developed anymore. That is when you know if someone is a biter or an innovator. An innovator will have a complete story that will explain the creation of their moves, the lineage of their style, etc. Just like a martial artist. A biter will just grunt at you and say they do their own thing, not even able to name their influences or tell you how they "came up" with a move or set. The creation of moves is a linear process that usually is an evolution of smaller moves being combined with other smaller moves and also with accidents; which are a bboy's best friend. Accidents create some of the most original moves in anyone's arsenal.

And to bboys who are learning now: Never let anyone tell you that "everyone bites so it is perfectly ok to do it". Lets assume you are a creative person. Lets assume the person telling you this is not a creative person. A creative person and a person with no creativity could argue about biting forever. The reason is that you cannot explain, tell, or teach someone with no imagination HOW to be creative. This a point that is often overlooked when approaching the subject. There are innovators and there are imitators. Which one are you? If you can't say for sure, just keep in mind that you don't have to do what everyone else does. It will take you longer to find your groove, but when you do you will feel much better about yourself for being an individual and others will notice this too.

[MONI]

Mantis you are wise beyond your years. I'm astounded by the honesty of your thread. I just hope peeps take note and listen to what you have said. This is one of the best threads I have read in a long time on this site.

Peace,

Moni.

[nebdar]

STICKY THIS ONE! Shit should be mandatory to read when joining site, send it to everyones PMS Mods, something...no doubt bro, we gotta clean this mess up while we can, bboying is losing its soul

[Newb.Breaker]

this is amazing man thx for takin the time on doin this, sure will help peeps.

mods i think this deserves a sticky

[capbboy]

Nice Mantiis, this is why i like talking to you , cause u know your shit and where u came from. Ever since u told me about placing my hands everywhere u can think of while doing floor, it opened up a lot of shit.
props on this thread!

[B-Boy Z.E.D.D.]

True true.
But i would like to add that also the 'Famous and Skillfull' Bboy's have a contribution to the 'biting issue'.
I'm not going to say any names, but bboy's are naming each other bitters, 'cuz some1 is just able to do a move better then he can.
For x-ample the Karimbo Benji issue, lots of peepz say Karimbo is a bitter of Benji..this is plain b.s. , 'cuz Karimbo was infulenced by Benji, true, but this is not a bad thing!
Karimbo took the moves, improved them and created his style, , THIS IS BBOYING PPL!!!! Taking moves, improve them and add them and create your style (leaving the expression out of the contex).

Rest has already been said, thnx for sharing your knwolidge with us

[bboycatell]

yo Mantis i'd like to share a short story with u and tell u what this thread did for me:
i too started as a bboy with a mentor. my first three years were spent being influenced by the rules that jiggz (my mentor) taught me. he taught me those same 'moral' rules that u were speaking of. I lived in a small little valley, where there was about 5 bboys, we practiced a little bit of power, but mainly focused on our styles, and improving and expanding our dance "vocab". we lived pretty far away from the bigger bboy scene, so i didnt really see the athletics and power that's out there in the bboy world until i moved away. now i'm living in germany, breakin with one other guy, teaching quite a few kids. the guy i break with is a total 'korean power' fan, and straight up bites their power styles. i realized that most of the kids are not wanting to learn the dance or the 'rules' that should be taught, but rather learn the athletic/dynamic stuff like 1990s and headspins. from reading your thread, i realized that he's influencing these kids in the wrongest way. If he spoke english, i'd simply show him the thread, but i belive in what you're talking about, so i'm gonna talk to the guy, n hopefully open his eyes, so these kids can become 'better' bboys. you opened my eyes a little wider, so to say. great and valid stuff up there^. keep it up.
-catell

[A.L.Buckets]

Biting is not all or nothing, there are varying degrees. If there was 0% biting, then there would be no bboying cos everyone would be doing something completely different. Therefore, the argument on biting is unsolvable. Its not ok to just say "Dont Bite!". How would anybody ever learn? There is a necessary level of "biting" that is necessary for the continuation of the dance, but there is a limit to how much you can take. Therefore, the questions is how much is too much?

[linomac]

I've been waiting for someone to open the topic up on Biting. Mantis you rule!

[jamestilla]

I just wanted to jump in, because i'm feeling this thread, its real nice to have this topic be brought up by a thoughtful individual.
I feel like this newest generation of bboys is being brought up without understanding the full complexity of biting shit and being original.

In some circles, this notion has been oversimplified, into a binary system. If you're not biting, your original.
biting= bad
orginal = good

we need to acknowledge the different gradiations of originality
being original, isn't just "not biting"....being unique isn't just not copying, you have to add something of your own
to me the biggest problem in our scene isn't biting, its the abundancy of people not contributing their own creativity to their dance.

4 or 5 years ago, people's whose styles were blatantly derivative of other people got exposed as biters....

thats getting harder and harder to do, we seem to be moving toward an international style, that feels less like a style and more like a conglomeration of moves taken from dancers, crews and scenes that developed their own styles movements and expressions.

iono...one one hand i love what bboy world is doing, its ill to be able to see what is developing on other parts of the globe, its dope how communication gaps have been bridged thanks to the internet, especially for those like myself who came up in super tiny unnderexposed scenes. But on the other, it is up to us as dancers to have pride in our local scenes, and in ourselves to create something of our own, to have the courage to develop ourselves as individuals without the comfort of latching onto the successes of others.

anyways...hahah coo post hope some of that made sense

-jamestilla buggin out crew

[bgirldazzle]

Wow I can't believe I just read that entire thing. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure how I view your opinions. I agree fully that biting is wrong and that it seems to be more or less acceptable amongst those who don't know any better. What I'm not so sure about is outwardly calling someone a biter for one move that you've seen from another, more well-known bboy. Seeing as how there are so many dancers from all over the world, you can't really tell for sure if ONE move is a bite. People can come up with the same move and not intentionally be biting. Haven't you ever seen someone do a move that you are just beginning to work on and then it's like ah crap, someone already has it...? then you have to drop it. It sucks when that kind of thing happens, but you didn't go out there and have the intention to bite from the next guy. There comes a point though where it's evident that a person is outwardly biting, down-right chomping. That's where it upsets me.

As far as particular styles go... I'm not so sure about that either. Like you said with the "flexible" style, those "pioneers" developed their own flexible style pretty much independently. Then it turns out this handful of people on the East do it, though each is distinguishable, and no one calls them a biter just because they're all flexible styles. Then as it expands people get mad that other people try to do that same type of style. Is it that they are directly biting the style or is it merely that they like incorporating flexibility into their dance? Don't get me wrong... like I said, there comes a point when you know it's straight up biting...

As you said, influence is acceptable, biting is banned. I just don't see where you're drawing the line between the two.

Another thing I'd like to point out is the subconscious. Think about this now. Not as an excuse by all means, but seriously... what do we think about that?

I don't really know if you can fully understand my thinking as I have only had 3 hrs of sleep and I'm about to get back to studying... but yeah... I'll re-read my post and edit later. I'd appreciate if no one bashes any of my comments until after I've edited it because really, I don't know what I just typed.