An in depth look at Biting among other things by BBoy Mantis (serious dialogue)

[oo6gee]

this is probably one of the most interesting threads ive seen on here... even though i dont come into the discussion section very often, this one caught my eye when it said on the main forum page last updated: "an in depth look in biting etc etc..."

hopefully u read this Mantiis, and ive been trying to improve my footwork but i get stuck sometimes, and im sure other people are wondering too...

what were the moves and concepts they told u to do? hopefully this knowledge can expand my arsenal of footwork moves. i like what u said about the placing hands anywhere you can think of, that already helped me with some of my footwork, but what other tips can u give us, if u would be so kind to share them...

i also like what you said (albeit briefly) about "universal moves," because some moves aren't biting, they're just a part of breaking and have been for years (eg. windmills, 6 steps, etc.)

anyways, hopefully you read this and get back to me, replying to this post or pming me.

very good thread by the way, i didnt think i'd actually read it all but it gets interesting, haha.

[#Alarm#]

Mantiis, thanks for starting such a great post and Yoshism, thank you for expanding it futher.

Considering that bboying itself draws so heavily from outside influences (named by Yoshiism above) I was wondering about the following: If I brought in a move from an outside influence, say sports aerobics , this would be considered OK am I right? Yet if another bboy copied that same move off me, it would be biting.

I think we need to consider the context in which a move is used, after all they are all tangents of the same thing, being breakdancing itself. I think that copying a specific move itself should not be considered such a crime if the move is extend upon.

HOWEVER, if the entry and exit are the same or the bboy in question is just ripping moves straight up with no originality or new twist, or flat out copying someones style. This is biting and should be heavily discouraged *knuckles cracking*

All my best move I found by accident - usually painfull ones. I am currently recovering from carpet burn of the tongue suffered while trying to do two consecutive one legged backsaults moving forward on a floor at the local gym (gaynors?)

I have now been dancing for two years and believe I am finally starting to get somewhere in the areas of style and originality. So rest easy my fellow new bboys and bgirls. In this world of instant service and foolish headlong rushes know that you can get somewhere with time, dedication, practice and a few nasty accidents

Peace

[Gama]

Thanks alot,i need sometime to think now,u wrote alot of things..anyways,thanks.

[yoshism]

You have made some great points about context and I feel like you answered your own question, but I`ll drop some further thoughts. The context would obviously be of a BboyBgirl nature and so tumbling moves done in a bboy/bgirl context would be free game. (Don`t call it breakdancing, bro,,, thats a media coined term & will get you less respect from the community)
Let me expand on tumbling before I have catz at my jugular about how wack gymnasts are & that they aren`t dancers. To incorporate some complex flips into ur set as a bboy is legitimate, but just having flips isn`t enough to make you a proper bboy/bgirl. A ballet dancer that can six step isn`t breaking and a gymnast that can backflip isn`t doing it either. The key here is the INCORPORATION aspect and also that you are claiming yourself as a BBOY or BGIRL by nature, not a gymnast. As a practitioner of this discipline of dance you are responsible to dance to the music with rhythm and this may sound real cheesy, but when you let the music truly move you, you won`t be dancing like a gymnast. I am a true believer of the music giving birth to the movement, and when a dope breakbeat is on, its really really unnatural to see very professional gymnast type flips unfold before my eyes.
Its in the style, energy or physical manifestation of the music that makes you a breaker, not in the moves you do. Borrowing the words of Buddha Stretch, we are merely the vessels for the music to flow thru our bodies and express itself. A seasoned eye will be able to tell the interruption that occurs in your tumbling body if its done in a gymnast type way without respect to the dance. A tip to keep in mind to see if your flips are being considered wack? Well keep an eye out in the circles next time to see if anybody comes at you with that gesture that a gymnast makes when they have completed their tumbling set (the stiff raising of both arms like a birds wings) It may be a sign that your set was dominated by your tumbles and not by your dancing.
Lastly let me make it VERY clear that I wasn`t accusing you of ANYTHING. Judgements were not passed on your dancing and I hope my thoughts can be of some assistance.
luv&respect
yoshism

[#Alarm#]

Thanks Yoshism! (note I spelled your name right this time )

I'm not a gymnast, we just use the floor as a power play area in the hope of not damaging ourselves quite as much as we would on the hard. Professional style flips seem to be accepted in the bboying community as long as they aren't too neat.

To put it into context I currently use a gaynor like so - skip step into circle, top rock - transition to ground (kneedrop, whatever), footwork, master swipe into gaynor. In this context flips are accepted, but if I just walked into the middle of the circle stood still did a back flip saluted and walked off I'd be laughed out of town/country/world - and I'd deserve it!

Now - back to the biting!

[Simeon]

whoah.. lots said there, and I agree, but Id like to take this to a bit of a more general level.

First of all, why is there so much biting in the scene today, ppl ask. Well I personally think its because the scene is so fucking big. I mean when I read A2k's article about him going to france. He was going to a practise session with literally hundreds of bboys in the place. Well, to his amazement everyone was practising some pokemon guys toprock. Why would they do that? Coz theres so many of em. A human is an animal that follows others, if you see 200 humans doing something at the same place, and your in the same social position as they are, your gonna be doing that toprock like never before.

Now why do they even start biting? Coz they look up to these ppl. Theyre like "whoah, that lilou guy is my hero, I wanna be just like him! One day, Ill have every move he has" And because there are like dozens of other ppl around him saying the same thing, theyre gonna be doing that toprock until they get it. You gotta be a real lone wolf to try and start your own thing in an enviroment like that.

Even in finland, where allmost everyone practises foundation and everything is going in to a good direction, it can be found that most of the new generation stuff repeats itself. The lucky thing is that its so spread out and ppl know alot about the dance, so flavor and originality is there too, and growing.

Now about the biting on an individual level:
I myself started bboying almost 3 years ago now, and I started alone, and have been doing it alone ever since. Now to me, it has never even occured to me that I might just start biting ppls moves. Once I bit this really strange move that one guy had and it was wicked, but I never did it infront of anyone, coz even when I did it alone in my room, I would feel really guilty for biting.

Now why would I care about biting? Coz Ive been thought that way. Ever since I got to breakdance.com and bboyworld.com ppl have been always saying "biting is bad" and so on. Also where ever Ive been in the internet, ppl always say "find your own style", SO I really doubt its actually the internet that is doing it, on the opposite! The internet gives out information just like any human being, some say "bite", some say "dont!".
On the last note, in my own home Ive always been thought not to steel or lie, and it has really stuck with me. To me Biting just fell in to that category immediatly I heard of it. Now I know a lot of ppl who lie, steal, and are really quite nasty ppl (not all bboys ofcourse). I would not hesitate to think that these ppl wouldnt feel bad if they bit from someone. The only reason that they wouldnt do it, would be because someone would blame em for it. For them biting would fall in the category of stealing, which isnt that bad for em.

So in conclusion, I dont see biting as such an abstract thing. Its simply stealing other ppls thoughts, Ideas, Emotions and Soul. Some ppl think that it aint that bad, some ppl do and some ppl realise that finding yourself is much more fun.
These days it just keeps getting easier to bite, because there are so many more bboys out there and nobody can keep track of whos biting and who isnt, so ppl biting get away with it. Back in the day there werent so many bboys so keeping track was easier and scenes were local, so the jaws sign mustve been actually used, lol, you dont see that too much anymore..

[valdici]

hi i got nothing realy 2 say except that this post of ures made me think a great deal about bboying and usually bboys they dont like 2 do that so much they just u know go on their head anddo moves or dance right less talk more dancing
but anyway thx for taking the time 2 write it up i think it'll help many people

peace frm the far east

[bboy_spk]

way to go mantis

i c some peeps taking the most "popular moves" and integrating it into their "sets" (it'd be wrong to say "their footwork").
some battles between the new breakerz are boring because to some extent, some "breakers" (not bboyz, kmel used to say that bboy had a dynamic style where as breakdancers have a dynamic move) do sets that really look alike between them.
i find that some of the new peeps on the scene lack flavor and originality in expressing themselves through their "own" dance.

[mantiis_en_zk]

Yoshism did a good reply to alarms concerns about what becomes bboying when you bring it from outside breaking. That is the topic of my last LONG post which I may need to revive sometime. It was about foundation and bringing things from outside breaking. Basically it was about what is and isn't a bboy and why.

One thing I want to say to people replying here. I appreciate that people have taken such an interest in it and have been giving good replies, but I would prefer to keep the replies semi-related to the actual issue which is trying to explain to new bboys that there is an option between biting and being original and that it IS a choice they need to make.

So If people want to ask things about say, how they can improve their footwork personally; please use PM instead or perhaps create another thread with that subject in mind. I don't want the replies on here to take on a completely different theme.
thanks guys

[indo]

i hate it when people say "oh, you say you dont bite, but you do windmills? aren't you biting?" =/ i hate that kind of thought, i guess some people have never heard of foundation.

this is totally off topic but i remember practicing my footwork once in the gym and some spectator girl who has no clue about bboying says "wth are you doing, thats not breakdancing...." my reply "..........................."

[ManOfGod]

Biting is not all or nothing, there are varying degrees. If there was 0% biting, then there would be no bboying cos everyone would be doing something completely different. Therefore, the argument on biting is unsolvable. Its not ok to just say "Dont Bite!". How would anybody ever learn? There is a necessary level of "biting" that is necessary for the continuation of the dance, but there is a limit to how much you can take. Therefore, the questions is how much is too much?

I feel you sorta. But I think there are some things that are basic. If I teach you windmills.....then ok....you can do windmills, and of course someone else did it b4 u, but if you put your hand in your pocket and use the other to hold your foot, then you made that move your own. There's a difference b/t expanding on basic moves and biting.

Props to you Mantis. This thread is sooooooooo what people need to read. So sick of people coming into this on the badnwagon mentality.

[lil_crooked]

i think we need to look at what modern culture has done to bboying. Firstly the internet has opened up so many doors whether we like it or not. now everyone around the world is connected and it also means everyone can share and see what everyones doing. bboying has become worldwide because of the world.wide.web. bboyworld.com is a perfect example of this where bboys across the globe can communicate to each other. what bboyworld also has is the raw footage section, which means everyone can see everyones moves, styles and skills. because of this accessibilty this has meant that people everywhere can watch and learn from these clips, whereas before this wasnt as easy. people started biting, from wannabe bboys to professionals, which has led to this 'international' style. before when bboys in each town or area could only see and bit off people in their own area, now they can bite off everyone round the world.

another important point of bboying today is that its back in fashion and at a peak it hasnt reached since the big craze in the 80's. there are so many more kids out there who want to break now than they did 10 or even 5 years ago! and this has happened on a global scale. chances are atm, if you're watching a mtv video, there'll be bboys in it.

so what does this mean? it means there are so many 'bboys' in the world that there's no way to control all of them. they learn to 'bboy' through a b2k film and bboyworld clips, with no-one to tell them whats right and whats wrong. as Mantis said 'the blind leading the blind'. these kids are biting because they dont know anything about bboying and whats right and whats wrong; "everyones doin windmills, so it must be okay to for everyone to do everyone else's moves". a kid in tanzania can look at bboyworld and theres no one to control what he learns and does. it's a sad problem but it cant be helped. its the price we pay for bboying to have become so popular.

we could try n teach on the boards and forums for example provided by bboyworld.com. problem with this solution is, with any trend or fashion, the ignorant outnumber the wise. there are bound to be more people who have been bboyin for a year, than there are bboy who have been around for 10. these are the same poeple who have found bboyin on the internet because they were lookin at the black eyed peas video. these newbie breakers the ones who have dreams to become famous in a year, who want to copy the 'cool stuff', who want to impress girls in their school. these breakers copy the best becuase they want to be the best. Most of these breakers will give up in a year or label themselves 'bboys' when they do not understand what a 'bboy' is. there are probably more bboys who give up every year than there are ones who dont. this means that these people outnumber the real bboys on these forums and boards as well. thats why we see ignorant discussions, topics, arguments on this forum everyday. these are the ones who dont understand that biting is wrong.

some of these breakers are also 'problem children' - even if you tell a kid not to eat fast food, do they all listen? of course not. there are always some who 'rebel' and will bite, whatever the 'parent' says. but at the end of the day, there have always been biters and people who have no creativity. and can you not spot these biters? of course you can. some say its more difficult to spot now because everyones biting. if in doubt can u say these people are ever recognised as innovators and bringing something new to the dance? these people will never be recognised and reverred like k-mel is or dyzee is.

before different areas had different styles and these areas were normally closed off. back then there were a lot less vids for lot less bboys, for lot less areas round the world. so it was difficult to bite styles and be influenced by other people in other areas. now because of modern age, everyone is learning and being influenced by everyones styles. this is an inevitable natural evolution of bboyin as the world changes. each areas individual styles as lost, as the world becomes one 'area', one 'scene'. the world is now open to everyone which means everyones on the same page. some crew in some town might have an original style right now, but if they become big in the next couple of years people will copy them because of the overexposure. the varying styles and interesting crews are now mostly lost and it's a shame but some good has come out of it. it means bboying IS growing and HAS evolved into the 21st Century. is having all those styles and influences worldwide such a bad thing? it means that a bboying standard worldwide is being set, and we are moving towards a definitive set of foundations and basics which applies everywhere. the global exposure has aslo meant that there are more bboys in the world. the more bboys there are the more better bboys there are. there is more chance of bboys who change the face of bboying. more possible variations in bboying. more changes and growth in bboying. having more bboys around the world is a good thing!

i also believe not all variation and style is lost. before each area used to have its own styles and moves. well you could apply that to the world now. not areas with their own styles but countries with their own styles. you have to admit the french have their own style right now. the korean bboys have brought their own style into the bboying world. the japanese are exploring their own style and seeing where they can go with bboyin. even finland have their own style, with emphasis on foundations. and the US will always be US for its where bboying started and where the best of undestanding of bboying lives. it may not be interesting in the US as now as it was before, but before the scene was much smaller and mostly in the US. now, as communication and travel becomes easier, you cant think in your 'own area' or even your 'own country'. if you're a bboy or a bboy crew, you have to be prepared to take on the world, and represent your country, not just your town.

and Mantis you said that there used to be superheroes of bboyin back in the day. well there still are. physics atm is taking on everyone, and he is a hero to a lot of bboys. i think personally hong 10 changed the face of bboying with his unique style and how he showed the world korea isnt just about power - come on, how many people do u know in your area who's trying the 'hong 10 freeze'. everyone looks at k-mel in awe, and say 'man, that's something you can't teach'. dyzee is a legend, period! bboys admire these bboys and some may copy them but it will drive some to become like them, as in to be the best in the world, without being a copy.